The Indian/Chinese IQ puzzle

@losers!!

I fully agree with you man.Whatever India is,we can get always get better.There is no harm in dreaming.In fact,they say fiction is the mirror of a culture and if I have noticed anything,it’s the fact that advanced nations are bigger dreamers than us.I think the main culprit for this is our poor economy and a “spiritual” culture which takes attention away from materialistic goals.

Oh,and all these based on some stupid book by Lynn?It’s pretty obvious from things like the flynn effect that Wealth raises IQ ,not the other way around.

I wonder who are these people who keep taking Indian names and saying the worst things about India?Are these some chinese having Indian friends(perhaps in the US).Are these peole from countries like Nepal(Nepal is a hindu country mind you)?Are these Pakis?Are these Vietnamese people who have studied hinduism?Are these Lankans?(Shouldn’t Lanka be genetically more similar to us?)

I don’t think these people are Indians.No decent person can bad mouth their homeland in such an ugly disrespectful way.

India is also probably the only place where cowardice and non violence are elevated to a virtue

This one is a little hard to digest.Are you putting cowardice and non-violence in the same bracket?Are you saying that violence is a desirable quality?Do you even know the difference between bravery and violence?Perhaps ,according to you,dropping the atomic bomb was an act of bravery?Or perhaps you view Gandhi or Buddha as a coward?In the modern world,empathy is required.

I found something on the internet:

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/podcasts/India_China_Border.mp3

It is a podcast.  Download it and listen.  Interesting stuff.

Yeh baat bilkul sahi hai kay:
Though both countries are faced with many problems, it is China that has the real superpower potential.
India is mostly media hype on overkill.
China is a disiciplined nation, while India is chaotic.
India may be showing impressive growth figures, but alongside those impressive growth figures are equally impressive inflation and population growth figures.
India has nothing but dismal failures to show as it’s superpower potential.
Like Arjun tank, Tejas jet, Arihaant submarine, Tata Nano car, Chaandryaan moon probe and most recently the failed cryogenic rocket.
Indian military and police are pathetic crap, that get easily butchered by rag tag rebels like Naxalites and Islamic terrorists.
It is OK to dream, but to be a great nation, one must posses the ability to render those dreams into reality and not just keep on dreaming.
Why so many Indians are running after green card or any other citizenship that can get them out of India?
In general, most Indians want to get the hell out of India. And this proves that India is not as great or shining as made to be by media hype. 
MEIN BILKUL SAACH BOOL RAHA HOON! CHAAHAY AAP MAANAY YA NAHEIN

I applaud all the level-headed humans who had the decency to stop all these nonsense. All humans are capable of achieving high IQ growth, we just need the proper environment and economic conditions. Whether you are Black, Blue, White or Green, everyone has the potential. Humans should be concentrating on protecting mother earth and making the world a better place for our next generation. We don’t need another world war to prove who is better. We might not even have another world after that.

Sincerely,
Peter Wong

Mr. Wong,

who wants world war? That’d be dreadful.

Have you ever met a black person? I suggest you do before lecturing on how race doesn’t exist.

Northeast Asians are very capable… Blacks are not. Live in denial if you will. I live in a half black area, so I know the truth.

What in the name of—?! Jeez! I don’t believe I just wasted almost an entire hour going through all the drivel posted in the comments, hoping to find SOME semblance of maturity and simple sense, only to be left with a sense of disappointment and a very bad taste in my mouth. It is incredibly sad to see the level the global community has fallen to, if these are the sentiments commonly held by most of the global population, be it Westerners, East Asians, South Asians, South-east Asians, people from the Indian subcontinent, Africa, even some goddarned researcher sitting in Antarctica, for all I care.

Come on people. Doesn’t the world around us have enough problems as it is? How the fuck can you be so conceited? I personally believe that this post was originally meant to discuss simply the variable rate of IQ across the world, based on differences as perceived and observed on the basis of racial and/or geographical demarcations. This is NOT a place for you to spout your racist bile at members from other races.

To everyone, Westerner or not, (primarily Westerners, from what I’ve read), go focus on your improvement. Instead of trying to shout down other people, and expressing your insecurity about this so-called “threat” from nations like China and India, prove to them that you have what it takes to reclaim your “glory of yore”, as some of you like to put it. The reason why the West is considering these nations and their brethren as threats today is because of their rapid development over the last couple of decades, especially since the ‘90s. The West, complacent in its own sheltered cocoon and with its “oh-we-are-so-better-than-you” attitude, has suffered simply because it made the mistake of underestimating the rest of the world. This has proved to be a costly mistake, and the results are up for show.

To the people from China, India, Australia, Africa, and any other country or region of the world, who feel they have been the target of racist attacks here or elsewhere, deal with it. Differentiation between “us” and “them” is a centuries-old human mindset and no amount of campaigning or whining and complaining about it is going to help. You simply have to work with what you get and make the best of it. And in recent years, you have shown that YOU can work and progress, despite setbacks and opposition. Judging from most parameters, this is going to be YOUR decade, make the most of it.

To the people who have tried to moderate things online here, and keep the flow of shit in check, thanks a lot. DragonStar, Ashok, AB, Peter Wong, Such Bolo, and all the others who I have forgotten, the world needs more progressive minds like you. Keep up the good work, and let’s hope that we get to see more and more people like you guys and girls take an active role in international affairs and relations. The World needs more Heroes…

And finally, a response in advance to anyone who thinks I’m spouting crap and who wishes to start flaming again by carving a personal vendetta against me, two words - F.U.C.K Y.O.U! If you are so insecure that you feel threatened simply by a random guy expressing his views online through a post, go cry to your mommy. Or better still, go hang yourself or drink cyanide or something and rid us the sheer exasperation of having to tolerate dickheads like you, and the necessity to find and kill you. The world is a very small place, and you can never be too safe. You have been warned…

Peace! Freedom Forever! _\m/

Looks like there a lot of Indians who are of the opinion that China is superior….thats understandable, as treachery and being obsequious are very Indian traits again.

To Frank - who here denies that race exists? Where did that enter the picture? Thats like denying the difference between a greyhound and a beagle!
However you also said that blacks are not capable - wtf are you to judge them? I’m sure there exist men so capable that they could make you look like a boor, a savage.

Josh,

I don’t know where you get your numbers.  You wrote “Jews @ 113 IQ.  Al Einstein and others” citing IQ and Wealth of Nations.  Yet, if you look at the table from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

Israel - 94
Ireland - 93

Also,
Lynn corrected for the Flynn effect in a linear-to-time manner.  That is, if he had IQs for a country from 1952, then he would normalize it for 2002 by adding k*50 to the IQ.  Because the underlying cause of the Flynn effect is mostly nutrition, a linear-to-time adjustment assumes nutrition advanced equally across all nations.  Because certain countries had a low baseline for their average nutrition, they would be under-adjusted using a linear-to-time approach.

Moreover,
Lynn did not have IQ numbers for China.  He had IQ numbers for Shanghai and Beijing.  If you read the wikipedia page I linked to earlier, you’ll find this statement: “For People’s Republic of China, the authors used a figure of 109.4 for Shanghai and adjusted it down by an arbitrary 6 points because they believed the average across China’s rural areas was probably less than that in Shanghai. Another figure from a study done in Beijing was not adjusted downwards.”

I would also urge you to keep in mind that the strength of a nation is NOT in its median IQ (which is the only number this thread for some reason preoccupies itself with).  The tail 1% is what drives a nation.  A thousand extra people of IQ 105 cannot replace a single person of IQ 185.  This is why women are not as successful as men in the higher end, even though their mean IQ are practically the same.  The distribution of IQ for men is simply wider, and therefore the 99th pctile IQ for men is far above the 99th pctile IQ for woman.  This thread needs to obtain the 99th pctile IQs across nations/races, not waste its time on the median IQ.  A nation can (and often have) send its middle classes as cannon fodder in wars and not change the destiny of the country one iota;  it must, however, protect and nurture its intelligentsia.

Chinese are definately smarter than Indians.

Why else do leaders of both, powerful and not so powerful states go to China, but not India, for help in matters of global importance? What clout does India have on the world stage? (India’s foreign policy initiatives don’t go much beyond the catfight with Pakistan).

SO WHAT THE HELL IS ALL THIS PHONEY COMPARISION B/W CHINA AND INDIA ALL ABOUT?

APART FROM POPULATION SIZE, IS THERE ANY REAL COMPARISION B/W THE TWO?

Shiva,

we’re discussing races not individuals. I’m sure there are many individuals who surpass me, but blacks are very different from whites and East Asians.

You have civilised races and you have hunter-gatherer races. Blacks are of the latter. I live with blacks. Have you ever met one?

My society bends over backwards to promote blacks, and it’s nigh impossible to find competent ones. “Token blacks” are to be found everywhere. Government jobs are filled overwhelmingly by blacks to ensure they’re employed.

Claiming blacks are equal or even near the same in intelligence as whites or East Asians is simply wrong.

-

The only reason I’m concerned with China is because it looks like a burgeoning empire. I don’t want to see a reverse Opium Wars take place. I also wish for America’s empire to shrink.

If the Chinese state turns into an empire, the Chinese people (as well as many other peoples) will suffer. Some might take great pride or for a few generations enjoy great wealth, but they’ll ultimately end up as the West has.

America is an older superpower, take it from an American: you don’t want to make a Faustian bargain for empire. Keep your soul, and reject the empire.

both chinese and japanese speak very bad english.we don’t learn much english because our books are writen in our own language,how about indian/they learn english since they were born ,all the books are writen in english.thats one of the reasons that indian have more people working for call-centre.

yet all the indians in the USA are geniuses. Seriously, all the indians i know (more than 10) took calculus before highschool and maintained A+ in all the most advanced classes possible. but india is very impoverished, and only the well-off come to America, which is why indians there have low IQ but indians here are so smart.

I doubt that the aboriginals’ average IQ is 60. That would mean that the average aboriginal is severely mentally retarded and cannot take care of themselves - and 50% of them are even worse than them. that would mean for every aboriginal with an average IQ of 100, there is one with an IQ of 20 - pretty much brain-dead. that is utter bull****.

Frank, Thanks for the well worded response.

I have never lived with blacks around me, so I guess I should (at least partially) take your word for it.

You then mention “You have civilised races and you have hunter-gatherer races”. If memory serves me right, I read somewhere that Europeans (esp. in the north) started off as hunter-gatherers too! How these hunter gatherers went on to create the wonderlands of present day Scandinavia (where I have been) is beyond me though.

I however, do believe that some races cannot, and should not mix (both socially and biologically). I just cant imagine a black man in, say, Denmark, or a Dane in Central Africa, living according to the norms of the respective socities.

Coming back to the point of India v/s China, I sincerely feel that China’s economic progress has been possible because of the Communisty Party’s authoritarian hold on power. I feel that a ‘good’ dictator can achieve much more in a short span of time than a bumbling, well-meaning democracy, at the cost of the lives of a few million people, like China did. Both our countries have a tremendous baggage of history, culture, etc (more so with India, where language, religion, region and caste can create a socity that can behave extremely fragmented at times…I dont expect westerners to understand this). What I do feel is that whatever progress India has made is despite the government’s best efforts
This lends a more human, dynamic face to India, where the people are not mere puppets controlled by strings from above.

But The ethos that justified the taking of these lives for the cost of progress just cannot be found in India - we here are far too soft for that stuff. This is a weakness, for sure. We call ourselves cultured and civilised, but I think its a great credit to a civilisation that it can make certain ‘sacrifices’ for a better tomorrow - this has happened everywhere in the developed world. The test for India will be to develop a model that works without the strings from the top or the human sacrifices.

As for the empire and faustian deal with the devil, I think its about time some superpowers or semi-superpowers developed in the east. I believe its finally our time to shine, and no one can take that away from us (except ourselves!)

This may also work out to the West’s advantage - it will definitely lessen the hordes of brownies and chinks that flood your gates!

Let me add an additional post on an unrelated topic.

I have long been fascinated by western culture and psyche. In the thoughts of most Americans, and particularly Brits that I have met (not to mention the movies), there is an almost self-destructive quality. Self-destructive in the sense of a definite lack of respect/concern for the social mores and thoughts, a quality of deadly sarcasm/unconcern towards established practices. This may just be the manifestation of youth (or booze!), or the characteristics of a society that places the individual above the collective - I do not know, but I wont deny that I was thrilled in a way, as this was something new and exciting to me.

But it bothers me when the western media denounces the efforts of other socities to preserve their culture and tradition. Eg - in the recent case homosexuality case in Malawi, the government’s decision was denounced in all the western magazines that I read. Contrast this to the Indian responses to the article in newspapers, which ranged from mild surprise to agreement with the court’s ruling. Similarly, when the Iranians fight hard to preserve their culture (I dont agree with most of Islam’s ideals or methods, let me say) it is looked down on in the west. Certainly, a sort of cultural imperialism is still prevalent, where the west is trying to impose its own cultural mores on others. Let me put it this way - homosexuality was a non-topic in India until very recently, until certain western women took it upon themselves to awaken the Indian masses to it. Completely uncalled for, imho.

How can Indians have a higher IQ when the majority of them have minds that are filled with thoughts of jealousy, hate, greed, selfishness, inferiority complex, false pride, conceit and sexual pervasion (due to being sexually frustrated)?

Let’s be honest. Most Indians today lack the ability of critical though and self reflection. Both of which are essential elements for any civilization to strive furthur and expand it’s horizons.

Boasting about how many Indian doctors, engineers, scientists, academics, CEOs and billionaires in other countries is nothing to be super proud over. Rather it is a reflection on what an abysmal place, India is to live in for the vast majority of Indians. Who can only dream of settling abroad, in any country where there is a superior standard of living. The proof of this is that Indians have now overtaken the Chinese as the largest group of immigrants settling in other countries around the world.

While many Chinese people have and are returning to China to seek opportunities. As are a lot of foreigners who are going to China nowadays to seek opportunities. For business, and increasingly for employment. Though the latter group of foreigners going to China nowadays is not yet as large as the former group, it is growing steadily.

Just as in ancient times, Rome was a magnet for people seeking opportunities. America became the Rome of present times, until recently. Now China is showing strong signs of becoming the next Rome.

Could this have been achieved if Chinese people didn’t have the superior IQ?

Do Indians, with their primitive and superstitious culture, honestly think they have the cerebral power to make India (with all it’s filth, corruption, uncouthness and general disregard for order and discipline), into a place where not just Indians but also foreigners would like to live in? Rather the opposite is true for India.

All those Indians who dispute the veracity of the results of the IQ survey, should ask themselves the questions in the paras above.

Shiva, enough gabbing. India is awesome paradise. We all agree. Now lets start working for it. No? Most Indians want 9-5 jobs and easy jacks up their professional careers preferrably through bribes and personal favours. You would all but admit that man to man indians need to match up to the chinese, you would rather retreat into obscurantism for your own consumption or of others that it is so because of their Communist government. Maybe. But have you considered that Taiwan, the other Chinese country, is also 1st world, unlike say Pakistan or Bangladesh, the other ‘Indian’ countries. I guess it makes me obsequois to speak the truth. I don’t care anymore, its just frustrating living around so many mediocre, dishonest gasbags (except the southerners who deserve a new beginning, if you know what I mean) who don’t want to introspect and correct their shortcomings. Don’t fret about this so much, every post by a Chinese backer doesn’t have to be met by a counter post to prop up the dignity of your famed land whether here or on the businessworld comments section. Some day the people here will come over the Bollywood curtain and find out the truth, when this comment together with yours would probably have vanished into irrelevance and obscurity. But what will remain are the tangible realities.

Indians have higher SAT scores than Chinese do, Indians are also better at English, Indians also achieve more than the Chinese do in the US

Average IQ is irrelevant and doesn’t matter since with a population of a billion+ gathering accurate IQ data is difficult.

India’s average IQ thing is BS

Here’s the average IQ in the US:
Jew (European, American).  .  .  .  .  115
Asian (in the U.S.)  .  .  .  .  .  .  108
East Indian (from India, in the U.S.)  108
U.S. White (Northern European, Urban)  105
U.S. White (Southern European).  .  .  100
U.S. White (Rural, South)  .  .  .  .  95
U.S. Black (North and West).  .  .  .  90
Hispanic-American .  .  .  .  .  .  .  90
U.S. Black (Rural, South)  .  .  .  .  85

Indians are much smarter than the Chinese in terms of science and mathematics, that’s why India has produced better mathematicians and physicists than China has in the last centuries.

India produced physicist Satyendra Nath Bose who made some of the most important contributions in physics with Einstein-Bose condensate. He’s ranked as one of the greatest physicist in history. There’s no Chinese physicist who’s made any contribution as significant as Satyendra Nath Bose alone in the last century.

India produced the self-taught prodigy genius mathematician Ramanujan. Ramanujan was poor, uneducated, living far away from other mathematicians, and malnourished but had an innate ability for mathematics that according G.H. Hardy surpassed even the famous mathematician David Hilbert. Some of Ramanujan’s methods are used for string theory mathematics today as well as other things. There’s no Chinese mathematician who even comes close to matching up to Ramanujan.

When mathematicians list the top ten best mathematicians of all time Ramanujan usually makes the list, but NO Chinese mathematician ever makes the list of even the top 25 mathematicians in all of time. There’s probably lots of other Indians like Ramanujan but because of poverty they remain unknown, Ramanujan almost remained unknown to world because of poverty.

Since Indians contributed more to science and mathematics this indicates that not only are Indians smarter but also more creative, and everybody knows that creativity matters more to the growth of science than answering IQ test questions, and that creativity is a higher form of intelligence.

India’s economy is also growing faster. The only thing the Chinese do is mimic and copy because although they may have high IQs they have no creativity. IQ without creativity is useless to society. India’s history, culture, spirituality indicates that Indians also have more creativity.