The Indian/Chinese IQ puzzle

Indians sure have the gift of brag.

Even supposedly leading figures of Indian society, such as industrialists and military officers are not immune from making astronomical claims that always turn out to be a lot of hot air.

Back in 2005, one of India’s leading captains of industry, Mukesh Ambani made a boastful claim about India overtaking China in GDP growth by 2007. Well, it’s now 2010 and three years past Ambani’s boastful deadline of overtaking China, but not only has this prediction not come true, China’s lead over India has widened furthur. China’s economy is now 4 times larger than India’s and still growing at about 20-22% faster than India.

Another example of Indian mindless bragging was done by former chief of Indian army, Gen. Deepak Kapoor. Who boastfully claimed about the Indian army being capable of fighting both China and Pakistan together and winning in 5 days. This boast was ridiculed by the Americans.

Indians have a habit of putting their foot into their big mouths and not feel any shame. This says a lot about IndiansAreSmart’s boastful claims of Indian’s “superior intellect”.

Wuddat,

One mistake Indians and Chinese make in judging each other is thinking of each other as homogenous entities. Indians don’t realize how diverse the Chinese are, and the Chinese to a lesser extent are not aware of Indian diversity.

South Indians for example tend to be circumspect, hard working people, in many ways they are quite similar to the Chinese. The north Indians, those from the north-west regions especially tend to have vulgar prole mentalities and can make some of the worst gasbags.

Deepak Kapoor for example, is a Hindu Punjabi name. Several North Indian communities don’t have any concept of shame. They lack any discipline to observe civic rules and have no concept of ‘saving face’. Corrupt officials and land mafia are the role models in these societies which says a lot. They kill girl babies in the womb by the thousands and believe in caste superiority to this day. You will rarely find an Indian scientist from these northern parts. They have anger management and alcohol abuse issues, are racist, sexist, devious and prone to law-breaking. Sometimes I think its all because of the barbarian blood mixing. Maybe we should have built a Great Wall along the Khyber to preserve all that was dear.

The bottom line is America (and the Rest of the West) is a White Man’s Country and Civilization, built by him and for him. We did just fine without all you (supposedly) “smart” Indians before the 1965 third world immigration invasion—and we will do just fine without you. Whites envisioned and built America—Indians and other non-Whites came to a great nation that was already built.

You are not my co-ethnic—and I am not your co-ethnic—hence we will never be able to live in the same nation or territory together (Good Lord, you guys can’t even properly get along with other castes and sub-races in your own country).

Nor do I especially wish to have you or other Indians, Asians or any other non-Whites in my country taking away precious resources from me, my family, and any of my co-ethnic Northern Europeans, who are my People—especially our jobs and dipping into our collective wealth in this awful economic downturn. It is not yours or any other brown person’s “right” to come to this or any other majority-White country.

I think the American baby boomer generation was a golden harvest any country will be lucky to reap. The boomers were hard working, competitive and enterprising. But their success bred a degree of confidence that immigrants could never really pose a threat to their success. I agree with your concern, which are prudent and well-meaning for your people, no natives in any part of the world would like being supplanted by immigrants, especially those who refuse to let go of their roots and integrate into a way of life.

It is a broad two way street. The movement of immigrants from India has been hurtful for India in the long run. It might have brought us rich foreign reserves and short term economic gain but will hurt our future. By a rough analog of the Pareto principle the wealthiest will decide the future of this country’s polity. Though many Indians from the high-tech and medical professions constitute the ‘smart-set’ a majority of the student population will be well to do upper caste elite who are buying their way out of the ruthless competition for education and privileges back in India. They are typically posessed of ancestral land handouts and corrupt officials/politicians in the family who have hoarded enough wealth to buy their American tickets as a shortcut to wealth and ‘status’. They feed back dollars into their little family mob businesses back in India and pull strings using their local indian contacts to keep the common, honest hard working man under their yoke. The US dollar=48 Rs, so by making them richer you are doing both your nation, and the third world a great injustice. Stop this kind of immigration.

History is proof that undeserving elite in power rarely abdicate unless they are dislodged. Indian society is seeing a particularly egregious form of this phenomenon. This is the class of immigrants you have to watch out for, not the one selected for intelligence, but brats from rich families carrying an ancestral strain of questionable ethics and sense of entitlement to others’ resources. Beware them. Once you close your doors these undeserving royals will be forced to compete in the Indian education and job market which can be pretty daunting for the untempered by its sheer numbers. It is then that we can see a dislodging of this ‘Brown sahib’ class and the birth of prosperous meritocratic societies in south asia. Both the first and the third world shall benefit from a robust immigration check against such undeserving migrants.

@IndiaCynic

Very honest and thought provoking input from you, my friend.

Below is a link to an interesting article that sheds significant light on the true nature of behind all this Indian “talent” flooding into America.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_5471.shtml

Highly recommended reading.

As the article shows, the true nature behind all this Indian “talent” flooding into America, began quite a long while back. But gained it’s present avalanche like momentum during the Clinton administration and continues to date. It involves corruption at the highest levels of the US and Indian govts.

I think the American baby boomer generation was a golden harvest any country will be lucky to reap. The boomers were hard working, competitive and enterprising. But their success bred a degree of confidence that immigrants could never really pose a threat to their success. I agree with your concern, which are prudent and well-meaning for your people, no natives in any part of the world would like being supplanted by immigrants, especially those who refuse to let go of their roots and integrate into a way of life.

IndiaCynic,

I agree, very honest and thought provoking input from you, my friend.

I am sorry if I got carried away with my comments—I was just reacting to the haughtiness of the “Indiansaresmart” commenter.

With honest men such as yourself, we can all have a frank and intelligent discussion.

My,my,my! I actually manged to read all thi shit. My opinions are based on personal observations here in Nairobi where we have a large Indian population and increasingly Chinese immigrants. Yes, I’d agree Indians are good at maths. Better than indigenous Kenyans? Hmmm…..I wish could give an ethnic breakdown based on our mixed African.white,Indian class adjusted for each races’ percentage of class,but I’d have to say no. The smartest guy I ever knew was a fellow Kikuyu.
Also there is a massive inferiority complex among both Indians and Chinese thats as obvious as the Caucasian looking actors you insist are the true face of India. I came to this site by googling some info I overheard about ancient Africans in Asia. The first Indians,the Harappans were African-and were identified as such by all serious researchers.

Professor George Rawlinson, in a work titled, “On the Affinities of the Races Western Asia,” states, “Recent linguistic discovery tends to show that a Cushite or Ethiopian race did in the earliest times extend itself along the shores of the Southern Ocean from Abyssinia to India. The whole peninsula of India was peopled by a race of this character before the influx of the Aryans…”; Historian F. Willord, in his work titled, “Asiatic Researches Vol. III,” states, “It is certain that the very ancient statues of Gods in India have crisp hair and the features of Negroes….a race of Negroes formerly had power and preeminence in India.”

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_3420.shtml
Btw,thats not Afrocentric bs. That research was done in I think the1920s. In fact the same Dravidians/Veddoids/Africans reached S.China and found the first dynasty,the Shang around 170 bc. Consult KC Chang, a renowned historian.
Conclusion? Hate yourselves or negroids as much as you want;but before doing so,it helps to have the true historical picture in mind.

I usually visit these kind of blogs to get a good laugh.

What happens is quite simple:Some Naive Indians boast a lot without much of a clue.But these generate massive inferiority complex in some naive Chinese and Westerners and they try to pull India down.And then the Indians fight back and the cycle continues.

Indians are definitely intelligent beings.Being an Indian,I know that.But there is a serious attitude problem in many Indians.The Chinese are much more humble and progress oriented(but they do show off a lot).

This is from where Lynn got the original IQ table for his book from
http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm

Not only is the source of this table questionable,it only shows IQ scores from only a few selected Indian regions .Most of the people tested are apparently from the slums of 1950s and 60s.

I find it amusing that people are treating IQ as some sort of gold standard of intelligence.IQ scores rise over time with abstract thinking.In fact, if Indian IQ is 82 right now,it would mean that they are cleverer than whites of the time of 2nd world war.This is because of the flynn effect.Those whites are the ones that built nuclear bombs and modern computers.

For your information- Lynn’s book has been heavily criticized and most reputable scientists dismiss his work as without any scientific basis.I am surprised that such a book is being used as the holy book in this discussion.

There are so many IQ myths that floats around the internet that it has become ridiculous.For example a common myth is that Einstein had an IQ of 160.Which is not true at all because he NEVER took an IQ test.We do know however, that Feynman had an IQ of 122.A 122 back then will be like less than 100 right now.He was a Putnam fellow and a nobel laurette.A putnam fellow is like being a medalist in USA math olympiad,only at undergraduate level.

And lastly,there is good genetic evidence that everyone outside of Africa are descendants of a single tiny group of people 60thousand years ago.That makes Indians ,Chinese and Europeans close relatives.So fight all you like ,but it does you no good to fight your own kind.

Re: One Indian

the same old Indian defense mechanism arguments, eh?

The author is racist.
He/She manipulated the numbers to make indians look bad.
The sample size is too small.
The data were collected from the most rural, underprivileged parts of india.
All Indians are intelligent because I know a lot of intelligent indians and in fact I am one of them [insert personal IQ score, impressive job title, etc]
IQ is not a great measure of intelligence because all Indians are geniuses like Einstein while IQ tests are designed for average joes with IQ in the ~100 range, therefore IQ tests fail to measure the indians’ supposed ultra intelligence which cannot be quantified.
IQ varies with age and one can prepare for an IQ test, therefore the scientists must have gone way out of their way to pick the smartest chinese kids, have them study for the tests beforehand, then compare their scores against those collected from the lowest caste kids from the worst possible slums. It has to be the white man’s plan to put down the indians, thus any schools of science even those remotely related to the study of human intelligence is of no significance at all.

and of course the success of a few oddball indian CEO’s and scientists is a clear sign that the average indian person is capable of achieving greatness if certain environmental conditions are met. Genetics play no part in the equation, and it’s all environmental. If indians wanted to, they could dominate the olympics with ease, the same goes for any international competition of any sort.

THe Flynn effect seems to have raised all boats. I doubt there is muh diffeence beteen relative Indian and white IQ between now and WW2.

Whites in WW2 managed to come up with enigma enryption machines,  computers to decrypt enigma, atomic bombs, computers to help build the A bomb, Mosquito bombers, B-29 bombers, jet engines, jet fighters, V1 cruise missiles, V2 missiles, SONAR, RADAR, helicopters, the MG42 (still in production today).

Where is the current wave of Indian innovation?

Dicking around with existing (white) products doesnt count, obviously.

@ One Indian,

I doubt Feymann’s IQ is 122.  Feymann was a certified goofball and I suspect he was being ‘creative’ when he took the IQ test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boXH-YhJp_s&feature=related

TD is the best.

Since cold environment is so crucial for high IQ,we only need to manufacture more ACs.That is going to solve our IQ problem for sure!

Think about it,it could be that Indians did not do well in IQ tests because they took those tests in hot weather.Now,if you take those same Indians to cold countries like USA,they do better than any other national group.I mean when you are given to solve puzzles in hot Indian sunlight,you tend to feel disoriented and your brain stops functioning.But now take these Indians to Europe.It’s cold -the brain is working - and Indians are officially geniuses now.

So all we need is a few billion ACs.Problem solved!That’s my hypothesis!

I found it! Evidence from a Chinese historian,not an Afrocentrist that Africans pioneered the first Shang dynasty in 1800bc.

According to Prof. Shun-sheng Ling, the earliest documented rulership of China known as the Xia and Shang dynasties, were ruled by emperors called Xuan Di, Black Emperors who introduced farming and writing to China, and under their leadership, trade cities and travel developed. Blacks in China were raising silkworms to make silk not later than 3500 BC.

The fundamental structures of a stylish calligraphy which is still present today was perfected by the Chinese under this Black dynasty, but in addition to writing, the Blacks of the Xia and Shang dynasties introduced bronze working to China and also invented the pounded earth architecture associated with early Chinese city-states.

Black Chinese 3 Furthermore, archaeology and forensic tests confirm that China’s first two important dynasties, the Xia and the Shang/ Chang, were Black African, with an Australoid known as Madras Indian or Chamar in Trinidad present in small percentages.

http://members.fortunecity.com/jrmoore1959/africapart16.html
Don’t get me wrong-I don’t need nor do I want respect /affirmation/friendship or selfesteem;this is the real world not Oprah or Tyra Skanks. But some of you do need to reduce your alarmingly racist yet casual assertions on ‘negroids.’

Hmmm….do I detect some subtle snarkiness, Mr.Scrooby? No matter;let me just supply the same info from a site I hope is up to your impeccable standards. I doubt it will make any difference since there is a definite race IQ agenda in your posts,but here goes- do with it as you will.

Negroid skeletons dating to the early periods of Southern Chinese history have been found in Shangdong, Jiantung, Sichuan, Yunnan, Pearl River delta and Jiangxi especially at the initial sites of Chingliengang (Ch’ing-lien-kang) and Mazhiabang (Ma chia-pang) phases (see: K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76) . The Chingliengang culture is often referred to as the Ta-wen-k’ou (Dawenkou) culture of North China. The presence of Negroid skeletal remains at Dawenkou sites make it clear that Negroes spread out from the North to South China. The Dawenkou culture predates the Lung-shan culture which is associated with the Xia civilization.

Many researchers believe that the Yi of Southern China were the ancestors of the Austronesian, Polynesian and Melanesian people.

In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch’iang (Qiang), Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang. The modern Chinese are descendants of the Zhou. The second Shang Dynasty (situated at Anyang) was founded by the Yin. As a result this dynasty is called Shang-Yin.

The Yin or Classical/Oceanic Mongoloid type is associated with the Austronesian speakers ( Kwang-chih Chang, “Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China”, Current Anthropology, 5 (1964) pp.359-375 :375). Djehuti your Austronesian or Oceanic ancestors were referred to in the Chinese literature as Yin, Feng, Yen, Zhiu Yi and Lun Yi.

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-black-african-foundation-of-china-the-first-chinese/
They’re directly quoting KC Chang,perhaps the most distinguished in his field. You should ideally direct your comments towards him but hes no longer with us. The impressive nature of his bibliography makes nonsense of any objections.
http://www.bu.edu/asianarc/kcchang_bio.html

The theories you cite are hogwash, Kikuyuvisitor, but here’s the real deal, happening right now as we speak:  Chinamen, who don’t come from Negroes despite what your Rastafarian blog claims, do run a real risk of turning into them if they’re not careful:

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/02/china-and-interesting-times.html

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/03/china-and-interesting-times-part-ii.html

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/03/china-and-interesting-times-part-iii.html

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/03/has-china-come-to-end-of-history.html

Those are not my theories,but the findings of the most respected archaelogist in his field;though I’m not surprised you’d chose to interpret my post that way. KC Chang’s findings were properly peer reviewed before being accepted and published by YALE PRESS.
http://www.bu.edu/asianarc/kcchang_bio.html

Negroid skeletons dating to the early periods of Southern Chinese history have been found in Shangdong, Jiantung, Sichuan, Yunnan, Pearl River delta and Jiangxi especially at the initial sites of Chingliengang (Ch’ing-lien-kang) and Mazhiabang (Ma chia-pang) phases (see: K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76) . The Chingliengang culture is often referred to as the Ta-wen-k’ou (Dawenkou) culture of North China. The presence of Negroid skeletal remains at Dawenkou sites make it clear that Negroes spread out from the North to South China.

If you have personal research invalidating his findings lets hear it-ohh and don’t forget to contact the International Centre For East Asian Archealogy And Cultural History,who I’m sure would be fascinated by your new interpretations of early Chinese human history.
Btw,that link about Chinese/Ethio marriage isn’t only totally irrelevant but betray your peculiar race iq fixation.

Indians are culturally and morally superior to whites, any day. Indian culture is more than 5000 year old based on non-violence, peaceful co-existence, respect for the environment, spirituality and Karma, vegetarianism, yoga, good family values and purification of soul. Everything is well documented in Vedas and Puranas, regarding the meaning of life and death, reincarnation and social obligations.

While whites were meat munching and kin humping cave dwellers till very recently, they wanna gobble more than they can digest and thats how they are destroying the world, environment and various plant and animal species. They faught more wars than any one else and reduced so many plant and animal species to extinction. Somehow in last few hundred years they went on a rampage spree based on loot, plunder and slavery and accumulated huge wealth and thats why they are proving all wrong is right including injustices and lies with there false propoganda of IQ test scores.

Read more:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita

@Essence of Truth,

“Indian culture is more than 5000 year old based on non-violence, peaceful co-existence…”

Peaceful co-existence?  Are you kidding me?  Gobbling up a three hundred year old monarchy is peaceful co-existence?

http://www.nepalitimes.com.np/issue/35/Nation/9621

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,913029,00.htm

http://sikhim.blogspot.com/2009/07/chogyal-palden-thondup-namgyal-with.html

the reason for IQ diffrence between indians and chinese is the diversity of indian population being higher than the chinese. indians have some extremely brilliant people but the majority is not.on the other hand chinese may not have the extremely brilliant people but on average less diverse but higher IQ population.